Godel, Escher, Bach: Een eeuwige gouden band
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- Create Date：2021-09-09 07:51:03
- Update Date：2025-09-06
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- Author：Douglas R. Hofstadter
- ISBN：9046706869
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Summary
Douglas Hofstadter's book is concerned directly with the nature of “maps” or links between formal systems。 However， according to Hofstadter， the formal system that underlies all mental activity transcends the system that supports it。 If life can grow out of the formal chemical substrate of the cell， if consciousness can emerge out of a formal system of firing neurons， then so too will computers attain human intelligence。 Gödel， Escher， Bach is a wonderful exploration of fascinating ideas at the heart of cognitive science: meaning， reduction， recursion， and much more。
Reviews
Ryan McCormack
，
After three tries that spanned three decades， I finally made it through GEB。 Maddening， inspiring， profound， insightful， confusing， difficult， important…It’s almost impossible for me to characterize this book。 Not for the faint of heart， but if you can stick through it， it just may change the way you think about the world。
Andrew Harvey
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A very complicated book。 But profoundly important。
Lauren
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A long， winding work that describes recursion and self-reference using many examples。 These examples include music， Escher prints， DNA/RNA， consciousness， computer programs， ant colonies。I honestly think the thesis for this book could be summarized in an essay。 Systems exist on separate levels， sometimes these levels interact， or one level emerges from another （e。g。 mental processing， consciousness）。 The way systems interact isn't always clean， and can seem to 'break' rules of one of the systems A long， winding work that describes recursion and self-reference using many examples。 These examples include music， Escher prints， DNA/RNA， consciousness， computer programs， ant colonies。I honestly think the thesis for this book could be summarized in an essay。 Systems exist on separate levels， sometimes these levels interact， or one level emerges from another （e。g。 mental processing， consciousness）。 The way systems interact isn't always clean， and can seem to 'break' rules of one of the systems。 "This sentence is false"。 The higher-level meaning conflicts with the literal syntactical meaning。 These ideas of self-reference and conflict speak to the higher concept of emergent consciousness。"Unlike a standard chess program， which does not monitor itself and consequently has no ideas about where its moves come from， this program does monitor itself and does have ideas about its ideas - but it cannot monitor its own processes in complete detail， and therefore has a sort of intuitive sense of its workings， without full understanding。 From this balance between self-knowledge and self-ignorance comes the feeling of free will。""On a low （machine language） level， the program looks like any other program; on a high （chunked） level， qualities such as 'will'， 'intuition'， 'creativity'， and 'consciousness' can emerge。"I think the biggest value of this book comes in the journey of reading it。 The fictional dialogues prevent the book from feeling to heavy （especially with the logical proofs）。 Hofstadter has an enthusiastic interest in a variety of topics， so it's fun to learn about all of them， and how they connect to recursion and self-reference。 。。。more
Daniele Cappuccio
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Praticamente è come farsi i funghetti allucinogeni ad Amsterdam， però costa solo 20 euro。 Che poi， è lo stesso prezzo a cui ho preso i funghetti ad Amsterdam。 Vabbè è come i funghetti， ma dura di più l'effetto， però non vedi i draghi e non devi convincere il commesso che hai almeno 18 anni dopo che hai lasciato la carta d'identità in hotel。 Praticamente è come farsi i funghetti allucinogeni ad Amsterdam， però costa solo 20 euro。 Che poi， è lo stesso prezzo a cui ho preso i funghetti ad Amsterdam。 Vabbè è come i funghetti， ma dura di più l'effetto， però non vedi i draghi e non devi convincere il commesso che hai almeno 18 anni dopo che hai lasciato la carta d'identità in hotel。 。。。more
Terragyrl3
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This book explores the nature of consciousness， as reflected through the challenges of building AI。 To explore the nature of thinking， the author uses the eponymous creators—Godel， Escher， Bach—all of whom exploited recursions in their respective thought systems （math， art， music）。 Be prepared not only for the daunting page count but also the highly clever dialogues that illustrate the author’s point （but sometimes paradoxically delay the true conversation）。 The author obviously had great fun wr This book explores the nature of consciousness， as reflected through the challenges of building AI。 To explore the nature of thinking， the author uses the eponymous creators—Godel， Escher， Bach—all of whom exploited recursions in their respective thought systems （math， art， music）。 Be prepared not only for the daunting page count but also the highly clever dialogues that illustrate the author’s point （but sometimes paradoxically delay the true conversation）。 The author obviously had great fun writing this book。 I give the book 4 stars for scholarship and originality， but I didn’t have as much fun as the author did。 。。。more
Travis Scher
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I appreciate that， to some， this book is a masterpiece。 To me it was just not that engaging， and I did not finish on two attempts。 It takes a lot of effort and I did not find that numbers theory provides a sufficient payoff。 It is sometimes funny， but overall not that amusing。
Apalsant
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Read 1st part （3/5 stars）
Nathan
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I got one chapter into this and found it quite interesting。 However， I very quickly came to realize that it's the sort of book that would require a lot of note-taking to get anything out of it， and I'm not sure I'm on that level of passion for advanced maths。 I got one chapter into this and found it quite interesting。 However， I very quickly came to realize that it's the sort of book that would require a lot of note-taking to get anything out of it， and I'm not sure I'm on that level of passion for advanced maths。 。。。more
Inky
，
Well， this was a long and wonderful ride。 I read this book over the period of a year and 21 days with a friend， discussing each chapter every fortnight for 2-3 hours。 We both made notes on each chapter， pondered about， and asked questions that we had never considered before， but I won't include them in this review， instead， I'll write about the feelings this book invoked in me。 I think what is unique about this book is that it's core ideas are not simply given to you on a platter。 Instead， you a Well， this was a long and wonderful ride。 I read this book over the period of a year and 21 days with a friend， discussing each chapter every fortnight for 2-3 hours。 We both made notes on each chapter， pondered about， and asked questions that we had never considered before， but I won't include them in this review， instead， I'll write about the feelings this book invoked in me。 I think what is unique about this book is that it's core ideas are not simply given to you on a platter。 Instead， you are lead through a foggy forest， catching glimpses of things here and there， meeting many new quirky people and creatures， learning new ideas through strange events that happen on the way， before finally reaching what looks like the End: a pale blue， glowing light seeping through the gaps the trees。 You walk over to the End， and you realise， it's the exact spot where you started， and the the silhouette of the person that you had been following all along， was simply an image inside an odd mirror that curved in such a way that it showed your back。 You think to yourself that the journey you just went through must have been impossible， before you realise that that was a misconception that you learned about during the journey only moments ago:。。。I'll leave readers to embark on this seemingly impossible journey for themselves to discover it。 On another note， you are already in the middle of a similar trip， since consciousness itself is a tangled loop very much like the journey I just described。。。 。。。more
Yumeko
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Wow ok that took me way longer than a 750 page book usually does but it was worth it。。。。The main focus was Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorem， with Escher's art and Bach's pieces playing indespensible roles。 Though by no means is that all。 In fact， I don't think I'll ever read a book that braids together far reaching concepts （from Zen to typogenetics to AI） together so well （actually， tbf， I was speculative about the philosophical bits， but skepticism is my rule of thumb of sorts）。 It's writte Wow ok that took me way longer than a 750 page book usually does but it was worth it。。。。The main focus was Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorem， with Escher's art and Bach's pieces playing indespensible roles。 Though by no means is that all。 In fact， I don't think I'll ever read a book that braids together far reaching concepts （from Zen to typogenetics to AI） together so well （actually， tbf， I was speculative about the philosophical bits， but skepticism is my rule of thumb of sorts）。 It's written on the cover that it's in the spirit of Lewis Carroll （especially obvious considering the characters of the dialogues）。 Carrollian might be the best adjective to use for this。 （ig this counts as a spoiler）The last dialogue goes like this: Achilles， Tortoise and the Crab decide to make music。 Tortoise gives Achilles an existential crises （or a non-existential crises）。 The Author arrives， invalidates Achilles。 Charles Babbage comes out of nowhere。 They play chess against a machine。 They do gardening。 Babbage makes a machine 6 times smarter， calls it Turing。 Turing makes a Babbage， Achilles deals further damage。 They go and make music。 Evidently very Carrollian。 。。。The book did get irrelevant and boring at times， though not too often。。。。I suppose the most important point is that the book is accessible （and fun。 For me atleast）。 So yeah， this was a good book。 。。。more
Callie
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The book expounds concepts fundamental to mathematics， symmetry， and intelligence。 Through illustration and analysis， the book discusses how， through self-reference and formal rules， systems can acquire meaning despite being made of "meaningless" elements。 It also discusses what it means to communicate， how knowledge can be represented and stored， the methods and limitations of symbolic representation， and even the fundamental notion of "meaning" itself。In response to confusion over the book's t The book expounds concepts fundamental to mathematics， symmetry， and intelligence。 Through illustration and analysis， the book discusses how， through self-reference and formal rules， systems can acquire meaning despite being made of "meaningless" elements。 It also discusses what it means to communicate， how knowledge can be represented and stored， the methods and limitations of symbolic representation， and even the fundamental notion of "meaning" itself。In response to confusion over the book's theme， Hofstadter emphasized that Gödel， Escher， Bach is not about the relationships of mathematics， art， and music—but rather about how cognition emerges from hidden neurological mechanisms。 One point in the book presents an analogy about how individual neurons in the brain coordinate to create a unified sense of a coherent mind by comparing it to the social organization displayed in a colony of ants。The tagline "a metaphorical fugue on minds and machines in the spirit of Lewis Carroll" was used by the publisher to describe the book。 。。。more
Leo
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Un libro divertido sobre lógica y los límites de los sistemas formales。
Steve Roach
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This review is not a single sentence that states that it is not a review of Gödel， Escher， Bach， but neither is it a review of a sentence that is not part of such a review。
Rubens Altimari
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I can easily track the revolution that happened in my life some 20+ years ago to this book。 At a difficult moment of my life， with some lows （mother passed away， troubles with my business partners） and highs （my son was born！）， this book made me want to study again - in particular， Math， Algebra， Logic… In a short sequence， I went back to the University， dissolved my company， divorced， and went on a totally unexpected journey that definitely changed my life。 And yes， this book certainly had a ro I can easily track the revolution that happened in my life some 20+ years ago to this book。 At a difficult moment of my life， with some lows （mother passed away， troubles with my business partners） and highs （my son was born！）， this book made me want to study again - in particular， Math， Algebra， Logic… In a short sequence， I went back to the University， dissolved my company， divorced， and went on a totally unexpected journey that definitely changed my life。 And yes， this book certainly had a role！On a more objective review: this book explains the amazing implications of Gödel’s theorems， and combines them with a number of equally beautiful aspects of Art and Science。 It can be tiring and repetitive at times， so I would probably give it 4 stars if I’m being totally objective - a great replacement to the Gödel theorems part would be the amazing little book “Gödel’s Proof”。 But I’ll stick to the 5 stars due to the overall impact it had on me！ 。。。more
Hao
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no amount of pseudo-aesop filler can fix how bad the math is in the rest of this underedited horseshit book
Neehar Kondapaneni
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This book could have been much shorter and reached the main points far more concisely， but I'm glad it didn't。 It's an extremely creative way to present concepts in math that make them understandable and intuitive for non-mathematicians （I personally come from a computer science and neuroscience background）。 Some comments have complained that the author's main ideas （namely level-mixing and consciousness） are obvious， but in context （being published in 1979） the ideas are （probably） fairly novel This book could have been much shorter and reached the main points far more concisely， but I'm glad it didn't。 It's an extremely creative way to present concepts in math that make them understandable and intuitive for non-mathematicians （I personally come from a computer science and neuroscience background）。 Some comments have complained that the author's main ideas （namely level-mixing and consciousness） are obvious， but in context （being published in 1979） the ideas are （probably） fairly novel。 If those reviewers had read the book they would have seen that this was， at least， an ongoing debate when Hofstadter rebuts points made by John Lucas。 The only recommendation I'd give readers is to not get overly bogged down by the dialogues， some are less cohesive than others and I didn't feel that they were always worth scrutinizing deeply。 。。。more
Dalibor
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Je těžké shrnout， o čem kniha vlastně je。 Základní popis by asi byl， že to je matematická kniha o formálních systémech。 Zabývá se výroky， odvozovacími pravidly， rekurzí a sporností a úplností takových systémů。 Postupně se dopracovává od základů k vysvětlení Godelovy věty a její univerzální platnosti na jakýkoli dostatečně silný formální systém （takový， kde se dají tvořit výroky o samotném systému）。 Zbylá část knihy se zabývá příklady i mimo matematiku （hlavně genetikou， programováním a myšlením） Je těžké shrnout， o čem kniha vlastně je。 Základní popis by asi byl， že to je matematická kniha o formálních systémech。 Zabývá se výroky， odvozovacími pravidly， rekurzí a sporností a úplností takových systémů。 Postupně se dopracovává od základů k vysvětlení Godelovy věty a její univerzální platnosti na jakýkoli dostatečně silný formální systém （takový， kde se dají tvořit výroky o samotném systému）。 Zbylá část knihy se zabývá příklady i mimo matematiku （hlavně genetikou， programováním a myšlením）。 Zastává názor， že veškeré myslící systémy musí tyto sebereference obsahovat。 Kromě této základní myšlenky je ale třeba brát autorovy názory s rezervou - třeba u umělé inteligence se za 40 let od vydání knihy jasně ukázalo， že v některých tvrzeních se zcela mýlil。Vůbec se ale nejedná pouze o matematickou knihu。 Do výkladu se stále míchají absurdní dialogy zvířecích postav， které mají tvar， který vždy nějak reflektuje probírané téma。 Jedná se o hříčky， které dle mého jen znesnadňují porozumění tématu， protože velmi prodlužují knihu。 Dále se do výkladu motají odkazy na Bacha a jeho skladby， že skládal hudbu způsobem， který lze popsat i matematicky。 A do toho všeho jsou ještě přidány obrázky od Eschera， který kreslí různé nemožné objekty， které ale lokálně vypadají v pořádku。 A opět se to podobá formálním systémům v matematice。。。Z těchto důvodů mi kniha přišla velmi zmatená a místo proniknutí do problému se podle mě jedná o matematickou hříčku pro filosofování a zábavu nad těmito tématy。 。。。more
Erneilson
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Whew， what a ride！ I am still a bit dizzy。。。。
André Jan
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An incredible book， feeling like a cross between Alice and Wonderland and several text books。As someone who pretends to be a computer scientist， a lot of the concepts I projected too freely into computer science terms。 The idea of stepping back/going outside a system is something I hope to apply a lot going forward。
Ben
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Food for Thought。
Hyrum Hansen
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I've thought a lot about this book in the months since quitting at page 500 of an 800+ page behemoth。 I wonder why I kept at it so long， continuing to follow Hofsteder's rambling prose that fails to justify its existence。 Perhaps the ambiguity was the intrigue - growing up religious conditioned me to admire text that belies the simplicity of an issue， and frankly， this book reads like the King James Bible。 It is poetry， with tales that transport the mind to a mystical realm， where fantasy reeks I've thought a lot about this book in the months since quitting at page 500 of an 800+ page behemoth。 I wonder why I kept at it so long， continuing to follow Hofsteder's rambling prose that fails to justify its existence。 Perhaps the ambiguity was the intrigue - growing up religious conditioned me to admire text that belies the simplicity of an issue， and frankly， this book reads like the King James Bible。 It is poetry， with tales that transport the mind to a mystical realm， where fantasy reeks of reality。 Every time I suspect Hofstadter is preparing to make an interesting point or a unique contribution to philosophy， the subject of discussion changes。 This book is like dating someone for 15 years， holding out for a marriage proposal that will never come。I'm following up my frustrations with an admission: this book was unbelievably entertaining。 Tales of ants and tortoises suggesting strange paradoxes with the Greek hero Achilles playing the role of 'dumb jock。' Records that shatter their player when a conniving villain molds the perfect melody。 A whole bunch of really cool facts about Bach juxtaposed with mathematics， despite little rigorous development of the connection between the two。 I suspect it appeals to all math-minded folk for the same reason: it's the closest replacement for a religious text offered by the community。 But I think it's important to remember that the community to which this book appeals doesn't need a religious text， and Hofstadter is not God even though he suspects he could be。 Just like this review， Godel， Escher， Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid by Douglass R。 Hofstadter lacks a central thesis。 Just a little bit of cool information and some comments about math people with an air of religious mysticism。 TL;DR: I will read this book again。 But I'm mad at Hofstadter for spinning a tale so maddingly nebulous that after three months of fruitless agonizing I still think the book might have something to offer。 。。。more
Pamela Bronson
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I didn't finish this book。 I got about 150 pages in and learned a lot and enjoyed most of it， but I don't need to understand all this stuff （I am not and never will be a programmer） and I'd rather spend my time on other things。 I think it's a very good book， though。 I do love Bach and Escher and I enjoyed learning about Godel。 I didn't finish this book。 I got about 150 pages in and learned a lot and enjoyed most of it， but I don't need to understand all this stuff （I am not and never will be a programmer） and I'd rather spend my time on other things。 I think it's a very good book， though。 I do love Bach and Escher and I enjoyed learning about Godel。 。。。more
Joseph Campagna
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Excellent for someone interested in cognitive science and/or artificial intelligence。 I was not prepared for the mathematical formalism-heavy nature of this book， so I will probably revisit it later in life。
Tori Fehr
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I read this entire book。 No big deal？ I double dog dare you to get past the chapters on Godel numbering。 Why did I bother？ For all those moments like you get when reading James Joyce’s Ulysses。 You might not be sure if anything you just read means anything， but you’re damned if you’re going to stop this far in。 Unlike Ulysses， I persevered。 It did win the Pulitzer。 And it has been haunting the bookshelves of my better-read friends for 30 years。 And I am now thoroughly convinced that human-mind-l I read this entire book。 No big deal？ I double dog dare you to get past the chapters on Godel numbering。 Why did I bother？ For all those moments like you get when reading James Joyce’s Ulysses。 You might not be sure if anything you just read means anything， but you’re damned if you’re going to stop this far in。 Unlike Ulysses， I persevered。 It did win the Pulitzer。 And it has been haunting the bookshelves of my better-read friends for 30 years。 And I am now thoroughly convinced that human-mind-like AI is perfectly possible， but that it is not in fact capable of taking us over， nor will it ever want to。 Not while being human-mind-like， pernicious little apes that we are。 I read the book in gasps， in tiny， six paragraph bursts in the bathroom。 It took a year。 I’m proud of myself， and honestly believe I understand most of it。 So what the heck is it about and why does it prove AI？The premise is that the human mind is itself an emergent property of the matter from which we are made。 If one starts from the blind coding of DNA and adds the layers of complexity that make a human being （from enzymes to cells to organs to the brainstem to the cerebral cortex，） one reaches a point where， even though the base is wholly deterministic， the actions we as organisms undertake so closely resemble free will that we might as well act as though that’s what it is。 Huh？ TL:DR no one has managed to pinpoint the single moment when mechanistic， reactive， non-thinking gene fragments become able to organize themselves with such complexity that they can write a sonnet， or a 745-page book about self-organizing gene fragments and what they tell us about the human mind。 Consciousness happens in stages， through layers and layers of inherited and evolved complexity， so much that we cannot turn our gaze inward deep enough to see where it starts。 And that is simply how reality manifests。 Hofstadter dispenses handily with the Why of philosophy， by saying that it doesn’t actually matter。 There doesn’t have to be a why。 For a Feynman-ite like me （a rank pragmatist who is comfortable with incomplete knowledge of the why as long as I know the how and it gets good results）， this is chef’s kiss。 Freedom from needing a why， a Prime Mover。 We do not have to worry if our actions are deterministic or not。 Whatever we do， it’s as much our free will in operation as it is any mechanistic， divinely or stochastically derived system of which we are only parts。 We are made of nothing。 Enzymes fluctuating in puddles of themselves。 Yet we perceive ourselves as self-directed agents with total autonomy。 The machine produces the ghost。 The shell is always haunted。 If you collect enough data and organize it in certain hierarchies， it eventually produces that which we call ‘intelligence。’ 。。。more
Melissa
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Made it through the first third and had to return it to the library。 Will revisit when I'm in the mood for intellectual reading again - it's fascinating。 Made it through the first third and had to return it to the library。 Will revisit when I'm in the mood for intellectual reading again - it's fascinating。 。。。more
Amit Shrivastava
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There is a series of interactions between characters that seem to live in bizarre worlds and talk in a language that seems a mix of puzzle and science。 The book shows a delicate connection between the symphony of bach， his musical genius ， the amazing genius of godel and the author uses their work to show that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" as said by aristotle once， a cell in itself can do a lot， but only when it combines with other cells it gets a sense of emotion， how are hu There is a series of interactions between characters that seem to live in bizarre worlds and talk in a language that seems a mix of puzzle and science。 The book shows a delicate connection between the symphony of bach， his musical genius ， the amazing genius of godel and the author uses their work to show that "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts" as said by aristotle once， a cell in itself can do a lot， but only when it combines with other cells it gets a sense of emotion， how are human beings able to be emotional and intelligent is a work of lot of parts of our being coming together， the author uses the great genius of artists and scientists to prove this， i will re read it again 。。。 its a great read 。。。more
Alex Rogers
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I'm not rating this a 1* for any other reason that I simply did not like it （at the time of attempting to read it）。 It truly does seem to be an extraordinary book， and I dutifully ploughed my way through the first expositions of infinite loops in Bach's music （as a non-musician， this left me cold）， Escher's drawings （MUCH more accessible） and then Godel's theorem - where I learned a lot more about strings and set theory than I really wanted to know。 I know， there are people who love this sort of I'm not rating this a 1* for any other reason that I simply did not like it （at the time of attempting to read it）。 It truly does seem to be an extraordinary book， and I dutifully ploughed my way through the first expositions of infinite loops in Bach's music （as a non-musician， this left me cold）， Escher's drawings （MUCH more accessible） and then Godel's theorem - where I learned a lot more about strings and set theory than I really wanted to know。 I know， there are people who love this sort of thing， and I can see the appeal - sorta - if I had another life to live where I didn't squander my formative years gazing out of the window in Math classes， I'd have a better base now to get into this。 I think I have the mental capacity / tools to follow his writing if I try hard - but I also think it will take me 3-4 months to read this book properly， and I don't intend to spend my reading budget that way。 Maybe if I was in lockdown in Antarctica for winter， or stuck in a tent in Patagonia waiting for the wind to drop， or jailed for a year。 Maybe not。 。。。more
Bart
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An extraordinary book - rewarding and challenging as any you might read
Lia
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The descriptions were such that I felt like I was there and I looked forward to what was going to happen next。
Vercig09
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